EPISODE 7 TRANSCRIPT

Episode Seven

Open Banking, Explained:

Todd Schweitzer & Mike Dickinson of Brankas

23 February 2021

 

ALAN  0:11  
Welcome back to the Indo Tekno Podcast, Season Two, Episode Seven. I'm Alan Hellawell, founder of Gizmo Advisors and Venture Partner at Alpha JWC Ventures. Selamat datang kembali. kami harap Anda menikmati podcast ini. Now, as a venture capitalist and startup consultant, one of the most common business plans that I see involves online payment solutions of some kind or another. In fact, Payments last year was the second largest category of VC investment in both Southeast Asia generally, and Indonesia, specifically; behind Online Retail according to Cento Ventures' latest semi annual report. The digital payments industry is however extremely complex. There are, for instance, many players involved in the processing of one purchase transaction. The "supply chain" is moreover frequently changing. There are acquirers, processors, issuers, gateways, banks, networks, and hardware and software players just to name a few. And they're all involved in this complicated ecosystem. We're really pleased to have Todd Schweitzer and Mike Dickinson, the CEO and Founder, and the Chief Product Officer, respectively, of leading payment solution provider Brankas. Brankas, as an open bank solutions provider, lays down the basic "rails" for online payments. We deeply appreciate you guys joining us today to help us through a basic understanding of payments, and its future promise in Indonesia. Thanks a lot, Todd and Mike.

TODD SCHWEITZER  1:37  
Hi, Alan, thank you so much for the invitation to join, and it's a pleasure to be with you today.

MIKE DICKINSON  1:42  
Happy to be here, Alan. Thank you.

ALAN  1:44  
Great. Now, can each of you give us a brief background on yourselves? Maybe starting with you, Todd? 

TODD SCHWEITZER  1:50  
Sure. So I'm the CEO and the co founder of Brankas. We are a fintech company that started in late-2016. We actually started in Indonesia, and that's still our home market. I'm based in Manila, Philippines; and my co founder and CTO Kenneth Shaw is based in Jakarta. But we've been a remote company from the start, a circumstance which has been quite beneficial operationally for us during the COVID pandemic. I grew up in California. I've been in New York, I've been in Latin America, and for the last six years, I've been in Southeast Asia. And this is home.

ALAN  2:24  
Thanks for that Todd. Mike, would love to get some more detail on your background. 

MIKE DICKINSON  2:28  
Absolutely. I have now been Chief Product Officer for Brankas for a little over a year now. I've been in product for about 12 years. Prior to this, I was working at Xendit, which is a payment gateway based in Indonesia. And prior to that, I had been working in other product companies such as data intelligence, as well as also hotel tech. I grew up in Indonesia. I lived there for 17 years, and lived in Australia for about 10 years after. And now I'm based in Singapore.

ALAN  2:57  
Well, why don't we just try to set the scene to begin with. And I'll just ask you guys the very basic question: what is the current state of digital banking in Indonesia today?

TODD SCHWEITZER  3:08  
Thanks, Alan. I think it's important to understand some fundamentals about where the financial services and FinTech industry is today in Indonesia. We're still only at about 40% or 45%, banking penetration in Indonesia, which means only 40%-45% of adults in Indonesia have bank accounts. And if you look at that population, the vast majority of them are using it really only for payroll, and they're cashing out directly. So this is a banked population, but it's a low activity population. This is also a market that has extremely low usage of cards, that we would otherwise expect in markets like the US or in Europe. So by some reports, card penetration - usage of credit and debit cards - is less than 5%. And really the way that people pay online and the way that people interact online is through direct bank transfer and using banking services. And that may look like sending a deposit to your online merchant and sharing a screenshot of your deposit slip. And many times it results in going to a branch and of course, providing cash over the counter even for basic bill payments. So it's very early days for FinTech in a market like Indonesia.

MIKE DICKINSON  4:17  
Todd's absolutely right in that the majority of online transfers that occur are through bank transfers. And what that actually really means is, me as a person, I want to take payment from somebody else, I will send my bank credentials to that person, and they will make a payment and a screenshot will follow to tell them that the payment has occurred. There are other payment methods. Virtual accounts is a popular payment method which is basically a string of numbers which are attached to a physical bank account, which can then be distributed in a way to take payments. So I can use that virtual account number to walk to an ATM and enter that number and make a payment from there. As Todd rightly pointed out, credit cards are low penetration, and probably going to be even lower penetration as e-wallets, which is the other sort of incumbent "payment rail", which is obviously picking up a lot of steam in Indonesia today and is sort of trying to solve for the underbanked and unbanked problem. Other payment rails are things like being able to do payments at retail outlets and top-ups and whatnot, as well as the new QRIS network, which is being made available in Indonesia as of the beginning of last year by the Bank of Indonesia.

ALAN  5:28  
Point of clarification, Mike: what does QRIS stand for?

MIKE DICKINSON  5:32  
So the "QR" is as in QR code; and "IS" is Indonesian Standard. And what it really means is that it's a global standard to make a payment through a QR code in Indonesia, across multiple institutions.

ALAN  5:45  
Really useful background, guys. And as I mentioned earlier, digital banking and payments has seen a large amount of VC investment. We know more than a few players that claimed to have seen very strong momentum. And I guess question for you, Todd: what is driving this digital banking momentum?

TODD SCHWEITZER  6:03  
Yeah, Alan, I think a few things. Number one most recently is, the COVID pandemic has forced incumbent banks to think "outside of the branch". And this is again, an obvious thing for some of the Western markets. But in much of Southeast Asia, in so much of retail banking, consumer banking, and SME banking, you have to visit a branch in order to do basic banking services. And I think one of the big drivers last year in the incumbent institutions' thinking about digital products is really driven by the fact that branches were closed for most of the year. And so for a bank to acquire new customers, or to generate new fee revenue, they had to provide products available through FinTech partners, or made available through API technology, or made available through their online or mobile banking channels. So I think that's the most recent driver. But more broadly, Indonesia in the last three or four years has really started to see a number of non-bank FinTech challengers. And this is everything from the e-wallets like GoPay or Ovo or Dana that are entering and providing, frankly, a much better customer experience in many cases, as well as companies like non-bank lenders that are offering better interest rates, faster approval, and just an overall better experience, and other FinTech solutions that allow customers to do what they would normally do at a bank in a much easier way online on their mobile device, and usually much cheaper as well.

ALAN  7:29  
Understood. Now, Mike, maybe you can tell us more about the payments landscape. Could you tell us about the incumbent players, their business models, the newcomers and the new business models? Can you spend a few minutes talking about that?

MIKE DICKINSON  7:43  
Absolutely, Alan. So, talking about incumbent players first; as Todd rightly pointed out, the banks, of course, are as "incumbent" as you get. Pretty much over 90% of transactions that occur currently today are through the top 10 banks within Indonesia. And the reality is that their business models tend to be fairly antiquated, especially in the more rural areas. However, the volume of transactions do occur through their rails. We also have payment gateways, which exists en masse. The most famous ones are companies like Midtrans, Doku and Xendit, which are your traditional payment gateways, similar to the Stripes of the world. But they do tend to also bias towards solving other problems like disbursements, and even lending to an extent as well. Of course, there's credit cards, as we talked about, which is around 2%-2.5% percent penetration. And finally, we have the e-wallet solutions. We put this in incumbents because they have been around now for a few years. The big four are Ovo, Linkaja, GoPay, and Dana; and they hold the majority of transactions in this space. And they are onboarding people through the use of promotions and whatnot.

TODD SCHWEITZER  8:51  
If I can add something: it's worth noting also that the current payments landscape is dominated by payment intermediaries of one sort or another, which means I'm paying for a purchase online, or for an offline merchant. And I am usually paying by bank transfer, meaning I'm making a transfer from my savings or checking account over to the merchants bank account. And one way or another, there is often a payment gateway that is intermediating that transaction, which means I'm actually paying into a payment gateway settlement account. They're collecting the funds and they're taking their commission or their payment fee. And then they're settling with the merchant, maybe a day later or a week later. And I think one of the big trends and shifts that we're seeing is, what you can imagine is pretty obvious, is if customers prefer to pay by bank transfer, there really shouldn't be a need for a middleman. If it's simply a bank-to-bank transaction, there are ways to allow for direct and instant bank transfers initiated by the customer and in a way that the merchant can easily track and say, "Okay, this is a deposit from Todd, linked to my invoice 123". And so that's one of the fundamental changes we're seeing is away from the intermediaries and towards more direct payment models.

ALAN  10:04  
Now maybe continuing on this line of discussion, Mike, all of us have a basic grasp of bringing payments online and simplifying them and removing frictions. What challenges does Indonesia uniquely have at this point of time in this space?

MIKE DICKINSON  10:21  
Really, that comes down to four different challenges that exist in Indonesia today. I'm sure it is similar in other countries as well, but I'll try and talk a little bit around these four challenges specific to Indonesia. So geography would be one. It's an archipelago of 17,000 Islands. Logistics is already difficult to begin with from an infrastructural standpoint. It also means getting access to digital services for people who are in rural areas, or even the rural banks, to be able to get access to digital infrastructure is difficult. It's hard. And that sort of tailors into the next components, which is education. So number two is the lack of education within Indonesia. And for example, we went off and surveyed a number of merchants and we asked them about the QRIS network, the network, which I mentioned before that was established a year ago, whether they had heard of it or not. And the answer was an emphatic "No" for the majority of these merchants. And a part of that comes with the education of people of different payment channels, but also communication as well. And so that brings me on to point number three, which is around regulatory complications. In Indonesia, right now, there are two main bodies, which are managing payments and the industry of banks. And they come down to the Bank of Indonesia, and the OJK. And really, between these two institutions, there are complications in terms of decision-making around regulations, and also deciding on what is best for the Indonesian person. Finally, ownership is a problem in the sense that right now, the payment industry as well as the banking industry, generally speaking, is owned by effectively the top four banks which are BCA, Mandiri, BRI, and BNI. And what that means is that it doesn't really create an air of competition, and complacency can take place, which leads to services or products also being complacent.

ALAN  12:25  
Really helpful, Mike, thanks for that. Now Todd, I would assume that one of the major chasms to cross in payments is to connect the incumbent and largely offline financial world to the largely internet based platforms. Can you talk about this?

TODD SCHWEITZER  12:41  
Yeah, sure. In fact, Alan, this is really core to problems that Brankas is aiming to address with our solutions and technology. So typically, if a bank might be developing a partnership, a technology partnership with an e-commerce site. Let's say this is BNI, one of the top four banks, connecting with Tokopedia, which is one of the largest e-commerce marketplaces. And BNI wants to allow Tokopedia merchants to apply for a line of credit for inventory financing on the merchant page. Or Tokopedia wants to allow consumers to take out an installment buy-now-pay-later loan effectively at checkout. Or maybe it's as simple as BNI enabling the customer to pay to check out at Tokopedia using the customer's BNI account, where they can basically approve the payment and allow for BNI to debit their account and credit Tokopedia's account. So all of these require integration of API's. And this isn't the place to get into API technology, nor am I the person to go into detail. But the best analogy I have heard is that API's are like your waiter at the restaurant. So you give an order to the waiter, the waiter brings you the menu of options, and then the waiter goes back to the kitchen and tells the chef what you want and then comes back with your order. So similarly, API's are a communication vehicle between two different computer systems. And in this example, it's between BNI, the core banking system of BNI, and Tokopedia's e-commerce marketplace. Now, why do I give this context? Because, the way that banks typically have been doing these partnerships; and they see the value in it for account opening, for loan origination for payments; is that it's a custom IT project. And they build a custom API. And they spend six months working with Tokopedia developers. And they build a custom pipe so that Tokopedia servers can talk to BNI servers. I mean, it works. But it obviously does not scale, because you would have to go through the same process for every single merchant that you want to connect to. And of course, the ones that really lose out are the smaller merchants that would love to have this partnership with BNI and that are at much larger scale in terms of the number of merchants and transactions. But without having a scalable mechanism BNI is unable to capture this long tail of smaller merchants. So I say that because I think banks are now realizing that they need to think about their IT infrastructure in a completely new way, which is having a set of API technologies that allow the bank to connect its products to third party FinTech partners, e-commerce partners, e-wallets; and really any online business that they choose to give access to. And it doesn't require IT resourcing. It doesn't require a tech project. It's something that the bank can do simply by way of approving a certain partner. But it doesn't require any it building. And so that's the big shift that we're seeing is away from these custom projects, with Bank A partnering in a bespoke way with e-commerce marketplace B and really thinking better about, "okay, how do we make certain products or data available for anyone that we want to, to access our network, our banking network, and sign them up in a day?" And I think that is really the power of API technology in the context of financial services.

ALAN  15:55  
Understood. And I think that answer leads quite seamlessly into my next question, which is: I would also expect that key to a thriving, ubiquitous and friction-free online payments ecosystem is interoperability. And Mike, where is Indonesia on this front?

MIKE DICKINSON  16:14  
Yeah, Alan, great question. I would say that Indonesia is still fairly early days on this front. And I'm gonna give three different examples of what I mean by this. Number one was the QRIS network, which I mentioned earlier on, which is a push by the Bank of Indonesia to basically ensure for payments to be more seamless between different payment partners. Now, unfortunately, it has its limitations as it is today. It's been out for a year and two months now. And really, there's only a select number of organizations and financial institutions that are able to transact on, and through, this network. And this network allows for a person for example, if he has an Ovo wallet, to be able to pay into a BCA bank account. Or if I have a BCAA ClickPay account, I can pay into a LinkAja account. The second problem with it is that there's a cap of 2 million Rupiah per transaction. So what that means is that it really does focus only on the micro transactions that are going on. And it sort of falters when it gets to larger transactions. So I'm hoping that it will over time expand. Number three is that there is a 0.7% transaction charge on it. So what that means is that micro merchants may or may not adopt it. And then finally, education, as I mentioned before, was a problem. So it definitely has its limitations. But I think that over time, as they get feedback from hopefully, micro and small merchants, they can improve the rail. Number two is overseas remittances, which is something that is improving. Companies like Transferwise are now able to move funds in and out of Indonesia. They are able to also move funds from a bank account, for example, in Singapore, into an e-wallets in Indonesia, which is really cool. Number three is the space of cryptocurrencies, I think which is starting to heat up in Indonesia as well. But that requires a podcast of its own.

ALAN  18:05  
Thanks for that. Now, I wanted to focus in on pain points that are specific to the SME and enterprises. Can one of you guys address that? 

TODD SCHWEITZER  18:14  
Sure. I'll start. I think it's important also to remember that when we talk about the payments opportunity and the payments landscape in Indonesia, it's easy to think about consumer payments and our day-to day-experiences: individuals paying for goods or sending money to friends or family. But I think there is equal or potentially even more friction in the B2B payment space, or even among enterprises. And some of the friction we see here is for disbursements. For companies that have a high volume of payables, most of the banks, if you need to do a batch type of transfer, or you need to send multiple payments, it usually involves generating a big Excel file, logging into the bank, uploading that Excel file and waiting for the bank to process it. Then you receive a response file, which shows which of the payments were successful. And it's very archaic. I mean, literally, it's 1980s technology that's still being applied today. So I think in the enterprise space, it's about turning some of these day-to-day financial transaction banking functions, also into an API. So what would this look like in real life? This looks like having an API from the bank so that you can plug the bank into your Oracle or your SAP enterprise resource planning system, so that it's just a part of your day to day transactions. I think another pain point among businesses is: using payment gateways today, your total transaction cost for using a payment intermediary is going to be anywhere from 3% to 5% of your top line revenue. And so many businesses are operating on thin margins, especially in commerce. And they frankly speaking cannot afford to operate with those sorts of transaction fees. And so they find hacky ways to only accept bank transfers, and they have a team of people reconciling manually to figure out which person paid for which order, or which invoice has been paid and which invoice has been partially paid. And so having not just simply a payments mechanism, but also a way to manage reconciliation at scale, is a hugely important point for enterprises. That's a real bottleneck to their day to day operations. We're starting to see some innovation, and the banks trying to address this as well as some fintechs that are addressing some of the specific pain points around SME and enterprise payments.

ALAN  20:25  
So I know Mike, you talked about the OJK, et cetera. What role is the government playing, and what specific institutions are involved?

MIKE DICKINSON  20:34  
Great question. Indonesia is a very interesting market in that it has multiple players. And it can be quite different to other markets within the region. And at times, they can step on each other's toes, I'll talk about the four main ones. Number one is the Bank of Indonesia. They manage and regulates payments in Indonesia. They are the ones which are responsible for the regulations of open banking that Indonesia is set to launch on the first of July. Number two is the ASPI, which is the Association of Payment System Providers. So what they do is they manage the payment rails working closely in conjunction with the Bank of Indonesia for the RTGS rail, which is for lower value, faster transactions, and the SKN rail, which is a slower rail for higher value transactions. Then we have OJK, which basically looks at regulating the banks: anything pretty much that doesn't involve payments with banks. So that can be things like data lending, and whatnot. Now, as you can probably imagine, there are places where toes can be stepped on there. Finally, there is the FinTech Association, or AFTECH, which proactively holds working groups that work with the Bank of Indonesia, and other industries in order to surface new regulations or input for regulations so that amendments can be made over time.

TODD SCHWEITZER  22:00  
So I think it's worth noting also that the Open API, or the open banking landscape in Indonesia, is really still mostly industry-led. The central bank has released an open banking roadmap for 2025. But really, it's still in the draft, white paper stage. And so all of these new initiatives we're talking about are from the financial services industry. Of course, OJK and Bank Indonesia have been setting some guidelines. But really these have been commercially led initiatives, where the financial institutions, lenders and fintechs see commercial opportunity, in some cases go for regulatory sandbox testing approval first. But really, it's driven not by any sort of regulatory mandate, but rather just because there's a big commercial opportunity for more efficient and a better customer experience digital financial services.

ALAN  22:50  
Understood. Todd, I wanted to ask you, in my experience, one of the most common blockers on the roadmaps of startups that I advise and invest in, seems to be setting up reliable payments. What are the common bottlenecks or pain points for Indonesia's FinTech startups?

TODD SCHWEITZER  23:07  
One of the pain points for FinTech startups in Indonesia is that FinTech is becoming a more and more regulated industry. And frankly, the regulations are changing pretty quickly. And so what may have been a line of business that did not require a license, maybe six months later, the rules have changed. And now it requires first going through a regulatory approval process. So I think one of the big pain points is just keeping up with how fast the regulations and the rules are changing, depending on the line of business. And I think one of the challenges Brankas faced as well a few years ago was that Indonesia has very concrete definitions and business categories called KBLI, which is the Indonesian acronym for "business lines". And of course, these KBLI are lined up with non-tech industries. There's industries here like computer maintenance, and computer hardware supply. And so imagine taking a new FinTech startup, like one that provides open banking API's, and finding the right lines of business to match that. So I think that's a real challenge. And I think the other challenge is that Indonesian FinTech is complicated. There are big government-backed to tech startups. There are government-backed incumbents that are launching product incubators that are competing with those tech startups. There are independent tech startups that may be supported by a family office that has links to a conglomerate. So they're only going to do business with that FinTech startup. And so understanding the power dynamics and the complexities of how decisions are made, especially in B2B FinTech, I think is something to be aware of from day one.

ALAN  24:47  
That's really useful, Todd. Now another basic question, guys: how are business models changing for payments companies in Indonesia, and who might some of the winners be? And do you see any losers?

TODD SCHWEITZER  25:00  
One of the big changes is that the days of payment gateways intermediating any kind of payment and then settling with the merchant one day or seven days later; I think those days are coming to an end, probably sooner than expected. Because more and more customers are expecting to pay directly by bank transfer or using their e-wallet. And merchants are expecting to get paid instantly and to not lose 3% or 4% or 5% of their revenue to a middleman. And so I think you're seeing more and more direct payment models led by API technology that are connecting the customer directly with their financial service provider of choice. And then likewise, the merchant has access to those same payment methods that remove the layers of intermediation. So what does that mean, in terms of winners and losers? I think it's a question of adaptation. I think there are banks and traditional players in Indonesia that have adapted very quickly, that have built really world class experiences to allow their customers to have access to these API products and do online payments wherever they shop day-to-day, whether it's offline using their QR code (with the QRIS standard that Mike mentioned), or whether it's online by enabling direct debit using their bank account. But then there are others that are trying to position themselves to remain in the middle, collecting tolls for transactions that frankly, don't need to be passing through those rails. And so I think it's a question of adaptation and shifting from an intermediation model to a technology-driven model.

MIKE DICKINSON  26:27  
I would love to just touch on the regulatory changes which are coming into place as part of that roadmap that Todd mentioned earlier. With the PJP license, effectively, the licenses which are going to enable open banking in Indonesia, coming into fruition on the first of July this year, it's going to lead to an interesting sort of shift in the industry. Because if say, for example, you wanted to do account information sharing, or if you want to do remittances, they require different levels of the license. And part of those levels comes with having to manage a float of funds within your bank account as a business. And so what that is going to perhaps do is it's going to affect smaller startups from the get-go who don't have the capital to house within their own company. The second thing that this comes with is the ownership of the company as well. So it may be more difficult for international startups that don't have an Indonesian background to come in and actually establish themselves and compete within the Indonesian market. So I think that there are interesting organic changes as a result of these regulatory updates.

ALAN  27:38  
Really good to know. Now, Todd, what is our business model at Brankas? How do we basically generate our revenues?

TODD SCHWEITZER  27:45  
So Brankas is an "Open API", or an open banking technology company. We're not a payment gateway, nor are we looking to create a new version of an intermediated model. In fact, we don't consider ourselves a payments company. We're an API technology company, and we make money in a couple of different ways. Number one, we work as technology partners to banks and to other financial service providers, so that they can provide API's to support a number of different products. These could be for payments. But it's also for things like account opening, so that a bank can enable account opening through a FinTech partner, or for loan origination so that they can create consumer loan offerings on third party channels. And so we partner with banks and act as a vendor or a technology partner on revenue share with bank partners so that they can expose new products available via API technology. The other way we make money is by offering aggregated API's to fintechs or online businesses that want to integrate with banks. So what does that mean in layman's terms? That means we provide a very easy way for any online business that wants to provide a connection to a bank, whether that's for giving their customers a budgeting tool, where they have a view of their transaction history, or whether it's enabling an e-commerce company's customers to pay using direct bank transfer, or whether it is a lender that wants to do credit scoring based on a customer's transaction history. Regardless of the use case, these online businesses that need bank connections: Number one, it's going to be painful for those online businesses to connect to each bank individually. And number two, they don't want to spend IT time and effort from their developers to plug into old bank systems, when those same developers should be spending time building their core product. So Brankas simplifies that connection, and makes it super-easy for any online business to connect to a network of banks in Indonesia. And today we're connected to about 80% of the customer base in Indonesia through our network of bank partners.

ALAN  29:45  
Very useful. A follow on question for you: what are Brankas' says growth goals and 2021 and 2022?

TODD SCHWEITZER  29:53  
Yeah, so today we operate in Indonesia, Philippines and Thailand; and in Singapore. Although our Singapore business is more regional-focused. And really our plans for 2021 are deepening our presence in our big markets: Indonesia, Philippines and Thailand. We've just only started to scratch the surface in terms of open finance and open API enablement. So it's a really exciting time. And there's so much momentum in 2021. Because these financial institutions and fintechs, I think, during the COVID situation, have realized just how important it is to have online banking and online financial services available through API. So growth objective number one is to deepen our presence and expand our product network in the markets where we already have real momentum. And then I think you'll see more of Brankas in other Southeast Asia and South Asia markets. There's some exciting news coming soon, with Brankas in Malaysia, in Bangladesh, and also in Vietnam. So it's pretty exciting times, and we're on a pretty exciting ride right now.

ALAN  30:52  
It definitely sounds that way. Now, it would seem to be the key to our vision that we've outlined is clearly better structured, and more easily accessible, but still safely accessible, data. If I look at it from the consumer perspective, how will this democratization of financial data help the average Indonesian person? 

MIKE DICKINSON  31:13  
Well, it gives first of all power to the individual to decide what they want to do with that data, decide what services they want to apply for, and have that power to be able to do that. And so one of the use cases that we're seeing right now is, for example, the ability to do digital bank account opening through a third party application. During the pandemic, as Todd had mentioned earlier on, this has become a necessity more than a nice-to-have. And the ability to set up my bank accounts and do that digitally has become ever so important. Another thing is that they can be using this data in order to share for example, their own income in order to access certain loans to be able to apply for even a new mobile phone, or even to help validate their own address, and be able to access this information in such a way, or provide this information in such a way to the merchants, so that they can process their own products faster. Other things that they'd be able to do is even not have to put their data into multiple applications repetitively. To be able to share this information through, for example, a digital passport of some variety would be another way of utilizing this data from the banks and other large financial institutions. These are sort of some of the ways that the Indonesian person can actually benefit from the democratization of this financial data.

ALAN  32:30  
Makes eminent sense. Okay, I think I can finally speak intelligibly about Indonesian payments in having done this podcast. I just have to remember absolutely everything you guys have said, and I'm pretty sure I'll be able to join any cocktail conversation. But seriously, I really appreciate your time today, from the basic tutorial on payments and digital banking, to the description of traditional business models, to how Brankas is disrupting both traditional offline and online finance as the markets fundamental provider of those crucial "rails" to enable open banking. Thanks again for joining guys.

TODD SCHWEITZER  33:05  
Thank you so much Alan.

MIKE DICKINSON  33:07  
Thank you, Alan.

ALAN  33:08  
We also hope our listeners have enjoyed today's episode. As always, we really appreciate any feedback that you're willing to share about the Indo Tekno podcast. Terima kasih telah mendengarkan.  Sampai jumpa lagi!

© 2021 by Alan Hellawell