EPISODE 6 TRANSCRIPT

Episode Six

Hari-Hari Awal:

Kevin Aluwi of Gojek

16 February 2021

 

ALAN  0:13  
Welcome back to the Indo Tekno podcast, Season Two, Episode Six. I'm Alan Hellawell, Founder of Gizmo Advisors and Venture Partner at Alpha JWC Ventures. Selamat datang kembali. Kami harap Anda menikmati podcast ini. One of my favorite segments of this series is what we call "Hari-Hari Awal", which translates into English as "The Early Days". These episodes allow us to dig to the very roots of Indonesia's thriving technology ecosystem by interviewing some of its earliest architects and leaders. Few companies so fully capture the Indonesian internet story, and its evolution, and Gojek. And thus, we are really pleased to have company co-founder and co-CEO Kevin Aluwi join us today to share with us the evolution of one of the country's most iconic companies. Thanks for joining Kevin. 

KEVIN ALUWI  1:02  
Happy to be here. And thank you for those really kind words, Alan. It really means a lot coming from you who've interviewed so many esteemed guests. 

ALAN  1:11  
You're very kind. Well, let's start where every good story begins, Kevin. What do you recall being your first projects in your early days that Gojek? 

KEVIN ALUWI  1:20  
Well, being there from the beginning means that you do a little bit of everything. My first title at Gojek when I started it with Nadiem (Makarim); at the time, Nadiem was CEO. And so I, having a finance background, naturally became CFO. This is pretty typical for most startups where, if you have a co-founder with a finance background, they naturally become CFO. And I was no different in that sense. But as a co-founder of a company; and a very, very small company at the time; naturally, I did a lot of other things outside of my CFO duties. And a lot of what I did was around building the data teams, infusing a data-driven culture across the company and working closely with our business and product teams on making sure that we were consistently improving our operational and business and customer facing metrics. In fact, at the very beginning, I actually was our first digital marketer. So I actually uploaded creative content to Facebook and Google and Twitter. I ran A/B tests on our initial customer acquisition campaigns. So all of us did a little bit of everything. And it's been a very valuable experience in that because of that I understand to some degree; obviously, not to the level that people far, far better than I do; but I understand to some degree, how the many different parts of the business work. And I'm able to at least be conversant in those topics. 

ALAN  2:49  
Great. I thought it might make sense to plumb more deeply into one of the many areas that you have contributed. And that is on the development side, because I understand you've been quite intimately involved on the development, and specifically data science and analytics side of the company. Any crazy feat of engineering that you look back upon as making one of the most memorable achievements on the Gojek development roadmap. Was it a new feature? Was it the resolution of a long standing problem within the app? Was it connecting to another app or ecosystem? 

KEVIN ALUWI  3:21  
There are many. And I'm glad that there are many, because it does speak to the fact that we strive to be a very data-driven company. But probably the most famous one, and the one that has the most obvious outsized impact today is GoFood. So GoFood was started in May, 2015. And it started then, because we launched the app in January, 2015. And one of the services that we launched with (at the time, there are only three) one of those services was GoShop, and GoShop was a service where you could ask our driver to go somewhere, buy something and bring it to another location. And how it would work was you would pick a pin on the map; some address. And you would write a note in the app that said, "Hey, buy this thing and bring it to me." And what we noticed when we read those notes was that 90% of the notes actually asked them to buy food. And that's when we realized that there was a huge opportunity in Jakarta. And it soon became Indonesia and Southeast Asia over the years. But at the time, it was just Jakarta. And there was this realization that in Jakarta, there was a huge unmet need for food delivery. At the time, there were a few food delivery companies that were operating, but they didn't have great selection. And they weren't really widely used. And so it was an interesting moment where if you just looked at the market and said, "Hey, what's the opportunity for food delivery in Jakarta?" you would say, "Oh, it's tiny. Maybe not super interesting." But then if you looked at the data that we had, within this specific service, you could see that there's actually a tremendous amount of demand for it that isn't actually being covered by the current ecosystem. And so we launched GoFood and today GoFood is one of the most important products and businesses in the whole company. Some might argue the most important. And so, these are the kind of things that we really pride ourselves in doing. And it is a reason why we built the data team fairly early on. Actually the first hire we made in the data team Crystal (Widjaja),  today is doing some amazing things out there in San Francisco after she left us what two years ago. She's been really instrumental in building the foundations of what we have today. And really being, I would say, one of the pioneers of data teams in the country. And so we've been very lucky with individuals like her joining the team and really continuing to build out our capabilities in this space, where so much of our product and business thinking today stems from. 

ALAN  5:35  
That's fascinating. I did not know the origin story of GoFood. Now, looking at the other side of the coin in terms of things that help inform a company's evolution; I wanted to ask you what marked the absolute low point in Gojek's, early days. And how did the company extricate itself from that situation? 

KEVIN ALUWI  5:54  
With any startup, it's always a roller coaster. I don't think you ever get to a place where you can say "everything is really comfortable." One of the lowest moments out of the many highs and lows that running a startup would put you through happened in 2015. And in late-2015, we had a moment where we almost ran out of cash. So this was days away from insolvency, essentially. And by the time our competitors had orders of magnitude more cash than we did. And unfortunately, at the time, and I would say to a lesser extent today, competition was very much about promotions and subsidies and incentives. And so it was the main engine for growth. And we had to compete, and we had to participate in that game with orders of magnitude less funding. And so there was a moment in 2015, where we nearly ran out of cash. And it was a low moment, not necessarily because of what it meant for the business. It was a low moment for me because of the trust that, at the time there was 200 or so people placed in the company, and that we could possibly be failing them. That was actually my biggest worry. I remember that there was a moment when I was looking across the office. Our office at the time was a former furniture showroom. And there was this view from the second floor of the office that overlooked the whole building. And I was looking at this whole setup. And I was thinking that, "Oh my God. If we run out of money, all of these people might not get a pay check next month." And that was a really harrowing moment, because these are all great, hardworking people who believe in the ambition. They have options and other places. But they chose to trust and believe in us and our mission and what we wanted to build, and that we might be failing them if we run out of money. And thankfully, we pulled through. We managed to secure our next round of investment. Some investors came through with bridge rounds. And we managed to come out of that crisis and continue growing up to this point. Obviously, there have been still many ups-and-downs since then. But this is probably one of the lowest moments because it really felt like there was this real possibility, where we would very abruptly and very suddenly fail these hundreds of people that trusted in us. And the hundreds of thousands of drivers that also really believed in our mission, although they would probably be less visible to me in the office context. That was also a big factor. 

ALAN  8:14  
I'm very keen to come back to one of the many traits that Gojek is famous for, which is the ability to go much further with quite a bit less than some of its competitors. But I wanted to shift now to the building of the company. I assume Gojek has been one of the largest recruiters of technical talent at schools like ITB, University of Indonesia and others. And I'm keen to find out what was it like to find raw engineering talent in those early days? 

KEVIN ALUWI  8:43  
This remains one of our biggest challenges to date. Our campus recruiting program today is still a little bit unstructured. I do want it to be a lot more formalized. Today it is not. It's still a little bit informal. It goes through personal networks and specific groups that some of our employees are involved in. But back in the day, we really struggled to find good local talent. It isn't something that is easy-to-do, given the business that we're in. One thing that I always point out is that Gojek never had any local competitors. If you look at any startup in Indonesia today that has received, let's say, Series B or Series C funding (companies that have reached a very decent amount of scale), all of them have local competitors. They all have other companies that are also funded; Series A, Series B, Series C; that they're competing with in-market in Indonesia. We've never had local competition. It's always been us versus international competition. The reason for this is that what we do is actually very hard technically, and what we do really requires a level of talent that is really difficult to find in Indonesia. And if I can be brutally honest with you and with your listeners, it's a difficult decision and it's a difficult thing that we have to balance because I have been accused, understandably sometimes, of not focusing enough on developing local talent. And I can see why that sentiment is there. And we need to do better. We are doing better. And we can do even way-better. But there's also the reality that finding enough local Indonesian talent to do the business that we're doing, to build the products that we need to build to be competitive globally, it's very difficult to recruit at-scale for those skill sets and to build the things we need to build. In the early days, we experimented with all kinds of different recruiting techniques. And what we found is that the key really is finding that mix of experienced talent, and also very bright, young talent. And the truth is that experienced talent in the space that we are in, is mostly international. It lies outside of Indonesia. This could mean in terms of Indonesians who are abroad, but it also can mean just anyone from any country that is not Indonesian. And striking this balance is something that we are continuing to try and manage today. 

ALAN  11:01  
I really appreciate that candid account of how things have progressed. I did want to point out and I come across this a lot as a spectator of the industry, that generally the company does fare quite well in terms of employee feedback. And I want to ask you, what in your mind best explains Gojek's ranking above most of its peers on employee rating platforms such as Glassdoor? 

KEVIN ALUWI  11:26  
I'm glad you noticed that. And I'm glad to hear that because; and this is also part of my personality; I tend internally to focus on the problems. And so all I see are problems. But it is always helpful to get that external perspective and understand that in the grand scheme of things, we're doing, all right. And we're doing all right on this front because of, first and foremost, the acknowledgement that our only asset really is our people. And people say that. Many companies say that. But especially in our business in technology, it really is the case. Whatever is built today will be obsolete in three months, six months. And it will not be competitive anymore in the market. And so building the best products for our customers really depends on having people who are happy, engaged and motivated to work every day and feel like this is the best place for them to do their life's work, and for them to grow their careers. It really stems from that fact. I mean, I have many idealistic reasons why I really want us to build the best place to work for bright, young and experienced talent from all over the world. I have many idealistic reasons. But fundamentally, it is a business need. It's a business need that we have to have people who are happy and engaged. And we invest in a lot of things to make sure that that happens. And we also try and ensure that we build an organization that cares about our people. One example of this is during the pandemic, we were the first large company in Indonesia to institute work-from-home. And we remain today exclusively work-from-home in Indonesia, because of the pandemic situation. We provided work-from-home stipends, so our employees could buy things for their home office to help them be more productive and be more comfortable. We instituted "no-meeting-Fridays", and also we declared the last Friday of every month for the last six months a holiday. And we did these things, again, not for press, or because it sounds nice, but we really believe that this is a very stressful period, and people are adapting to this new world. And people are working longer hours, because they're working from home, that we need to have these policies in place. And it's this thought process; it's these kind of organizational decisions; that hopefully are being reflected in the ratings you see. And I'm glad to see that. I probably should check Glassdoor more often. Because in our internal town halls, I do feel like we still have a lot of things that we need to improve and it's totally valid. But it's always good to have a sense of perspective that things are generally appreciated. 

ALAN  13:46  
Absolutely. I did want to go back, as I mentioned, to that near-death experience that you mentioned earlier in our conversation. And I wanted to ask how has Gojek managed to survive and succeed despite historically having had access to less capital than some of its competitors? 

KEVIN ALUWI  14:04  
That's a really important question, Alan. Because it is a reality that if you're building a company out of Indonesia, there's a decent chance that you will have less funding than your international competitors. And again, for us, when we started, within the first six-to-12 months, we were in head-to-head competition with companies that literally had hundreds of times more funding than we did. And we got this far because of a combination of a few things. The first is that we built a differentiated business model that really came from a unique understanding of the customer. And the customer here is both the consumer and the driver. And also we always viewed the importance of building a really strong brand as a priority. So if you look at what we built in the very beginning, we didn't see ourselves as a super app. We didn't see ourselves as a ride hailing app. We saw ourselves always as a marketplace for consumers and drivers. We wanted to build what was essentially a hyperlocal delivery network. Let's keep in mind that when we launched the app in January, 2015, we launched with three different services. We didn't know this whole "super app" term. The term came out, like maybe a year or two or three after we launched. But we launched with an app that did three things. And in many definitions, and with those three totally different things for the customer, it's a super app. But we launched that in January, 2015 because we knew that on the consumer side, people hated traffic, and that the fastest way to cut through traffic was by motorbike. And that could either mean that you wanted to take yourself and go somewhere by motorbike to cut through traffic, or get that motorbike driver to bring something to you really quickly because he or she is driving a motorcycle. And so we saw that traffic sucked. And the fastest way to cut through traffic is by motorbike. And then we also saw on the motorcycle driver side, the "Ojek" driver side, that they were not as productive as they could be. And they were actually honest, hardworking, trustworthy people who just needed more opportunities. And we put those two problems side-by-side, and we decided to launch this marketplace in the middle. Let's build this delivery network that can solve all of these different problems that people were experiencing in Jakarta. And so we didn't define ourselves relative to any other company. We really saw the problem that was in front of us. And it's really that approach of really thinking about what the customer problem was, and having what is actually a unique view of the world. Even though from the outside world, it might look like, oh, you're doing something like this ride hailing company, or you're doing something like that delivery company. And you can reason by analogy there. And there are accurate ways of describing what we do. But really understanding how we got here is a really big part of understanding our identity and what sets us apart. And so even as today, we get compared to a lot of different companies that are doing super apps or the specific verticals that we're doing, we really do see ourselves as different. And it's really because we think, to use a very overused term "first principles" when it comes to our customers. And then the second point is on the brand. Look, it's no secret that what we're building is a commodity, that there's a truth of the product and the service. And because of that, we also recognize the importance of building a brand that resonates with our customers and with our drivers and with our merchant partners. And so we also invest a lot of effort in telling the story of what we stand for, and actually following through with it in this aspect of us wanting to be this on-demand marketplace that also treats their drivers and merchants with respect. Because we're trying to grow together and build livelihoods together. It's also a key part of our strategy. And it's something that we back up. So building that brand that really resonates with customers; that they know that they're participating and engaging with a company that tries to do good in society; is also another important part of how we've gotten here. 

ALAN  17:48  
Now, Kevin, Gojek is known for its leadership in forging a network of alliances within the Indonesian tech ecosystem. Were there any partnerships or acquisitions in the early days that were particularly transformative for us? 

KEVIN ALUWI  18:02  
Well, interestingly enough, our first acquisition was not an Indonesian company. Our first acquisition was CodeIgnition and C42 out of Bangalore. And yes, they were not Indonesian. But I would have to give that acquisition and the team that we brought on board, a lot of credit for getting us to where we are today. I talked a little bit about finding technical talent, and finding that right mix of experience to build the products that we need to build. And I would say that acquisition that happened in mid-2015, really put us on the path to have a foothold in international and specifically, in this case, the Indian talent ecosystem that helped us recruit some really, really great people without whom we would not be able to get this far with. And that one was something that definitely changed the landscape for us. But if we look at the Indonesian side, there's also several that really stand out. We've brought on Midtrans, an online payment gateway that is now a key part of our GoPay ecosystem. We've brought on Moka POS. They're a point-of-sales platform which works closely within our merchant partnerships. What's important for me to note here is that, we always look for partners that are culturally aligned. And we always look for partners who are excited about building a better world in a much more ethical fashion, and ones who really want to build something to make a better world for our customers. That's a really, really important piece. And we know for a fact that we don't always have the right answers. We might not always have the right approach or the right way of thinking. And so we meet other teams that we know are culturally aligned, who do want to build things in the way we believe is right, and also have these capabilities and this knowledge or these skill sets that would be complimentary. We are very partnership-driven. And those are usually when these type of conversations happen. 

ALAN  19:49  
Understood. Now Kevin, you've mentioned the term a couple times throughout the first part of our podcasts. The term "super app" seems indeed to be used quite liberally in markets like Southeast Asia. What criteria do you need to meet in order to claim to be a super app in your mind? 

KEVIN ALUWI  20:05  
I actually don't really like the term "super app". And let me explain why. It feels like it's a shorthand today to describe very different things. And to me, it's like the beginning of the internet era, there was this category of internet business. And when you look at it, you could have a ride hailing company and a social network and a search engine, or a travel booking site. You can have all of these things be under the umbrella of internet businesses. But it really doesn't say anything of what actually is an internet business, except that it's done on the internet, or enabled by the internet. We're in a similar space, when it comes to super apps. Saying Company A does a super app, Company B does a super app and Company C does a super app doesn't really describe what the app does and what the underlying philosophy or problem they're trying to solve is. And I have a problem with this, because these companies are doing things very differently. And it also I think, sets the wrong precedent for other companies to emulate. A lot of companies today are trying to do a super app because, "Oh super apps are the thing". And smart people say things like "ah, cross selling, customer acquisition costs go down and upselling," and so on and so. All this like "smart business" talk. We have to see it as a means to an end, rather than an end in itself. And so I do think that for us, we built a "super app", because we saw things from the customer's point of view, and from the point of view of what could a driver in a dense traffic jammed urban center really do for those customers. And so that's what how we ended up with many different services. And that's a common theme that unites all of our services. And that's why we have a super app. You have to start again, with what problem are you trying to solve? And what is the logical consistency across these different super apps? When you start from the perspective of, "Oh, I want to build a super app, because of all these great business reasons, and smart investors and other people are saying super apps are great," that's completely the wrong way of going about it. 

ALAN  21:59  
Now Kevin, given that Gojek has so many global tech giants as shareholders; whether it's Google or Facebook, or Tencent, or others; what key lessons have you learned from these companies, and have you adapted for Gojek's own benefit? 

KEVIN ALUWI  22:13  
It's a good question. There are a lot of different things that they've taught us, or we've learned through osmosis from them. If I had to go through them one-by-one, I would probably be missing some. But since you mentioned Google and Tencent, let's just focus on those two, Google has been a fantastic partner for us in that they've really opened up their organization; and the people who are building some really, really amazing things; to us. So we've gotten a really great understanding of how they think about their organization, how they think about building products, how they're also very open and transparent about their own challenges. And it's always really good to hear at a company that's smaller that a larger company is also grappling with problems. And this is not necessarily a case of "misery loving company". It's more of an assurance that, "Hey, everyone is still trying to figure it out". Things will always have challenges. And it might seem like everything is broken. But there are companies out there that from the outside look perfect. But internally, there are all kinds of challenges that they're still grappling with. And it's good to know that you have company out there, and that it's not that we've fundamentally screwed something up. And in many ways, we've tried to learn a lot from Google with respect to a lot of the people policies they also have. They're quite famous to really be pushing a data-driven approach on how to manage teams. They had this great piece of work around what factor correlates most highly with high performing teams. And the thing that really stood out was psychological safety, for example. Psychological safety is something that today, we really are focusing on creating within our teams because of some of our learnings from that relationship. That's just one example. With Tencent, I think Tencent has shown us an interesting possible future with this whole conversation around super apps. Beyond the super app point, something that we learned from Tencent is this partnership approach. Tencent as investors are very partnerships-driven. They don't try and have too much say or control within the context of how we should be running the company. And this is something that we've also adopted when we deal with companies that might be smaller than ours at this stage. We have a very partnerships-driven approach as mentioned before. We'd like to see the world from the perspective of their management teams rather than imposing our own onto them. And it's always good to see how people further down the cycle are approaching problems that are similar to the ones that we're facing today. And I think with Tencent, there's probably a lot of things around how to think about super app ecosystems, how to think about payments, and also how to think about partnerships with companies smaller than yours. 

ALAN  24:45  
Excellent. So truly far more than just an investor role that they play. Now Kevin, what were your expectations about the co-CEO structured go jek going into it, and how has it worked out so far? 

KEVIN ALUWI  24:58  
It's a good question. When Andre and I took the co-CEO role, there was this moment where it felt like it wasn't a good idea. But within the next six months or so, we started seeing more and more of it happen all across the technology landscape. Salesforce have co-CEO's. Netflix has co-CEO's and a few other companies as well. There were some initial concerns in the beginning because of the joint decision-making part of the equation that obviously always make some people nervous, and rightfully so. It really speaks to the depth and also length of the relationship that Andre and I have had through building Gojek, that we've actually forged a very strong partnership and understanding of how to run the business. And we've also structured the organization in a way where there are areas that I'm fully accountable for, and there are areas where he's fully accountable for. This is really the key to it. But if let's say Andre and I were both new to the company, and we were in this setup, it would probably be a disaster. But Andre was our first board member. And we even though he only became part of the operations of the company in 2016, he's been with us from the very beginning, and knows how we think about the business and how we want to run the business. And he's on the same page. And so the relationship that we've had, and the relationship that Andre has had with the leadership across Gojek and with the company really made this leadership structure work, though, I would caution others that I still think that more often than not, these structures are risky. And so one should only go with that when there is a very deep level of trust and alignment between the two individuals. And that takes time. And that takes effort. 

ALAN  25:26  
Makes eminent sense. Now Kevin, I've noticed you've mentioned recently a desire to grow internationally going forward. How has Gojek's first chapter of expansion into markets such as Vietnam and Singapore informed you around to what extent these overseas operations should be autonomous and localized; and to what extent should they, on the other end of the spectrum, align more closely with the Indonesian mothership? 

KEVIN ALUWI  26:59  
Oh, man, that's a hard question. And we made very public adjustments on this front. There can only really be one answer to this question. And the answer is that we tried one route before. That route unfortunately, as well-intentioned as it was, was not the right strategy. And we are reorienting the strategy in a different direction today. I think at the beginning, we wanted to really run it almost like a federation of states, if you will, where each unit would be very independent, both in terms of business and also product. And we didn't achieve the things that we wanted to achieve that way. I think I could spend another hour just talking about why that was. But the short conclusion to that is that the approach that we're taking today, we feel a lot more confident, that it's the right decision. And we've already started seeing results over the last couple of months, and also just early this year. And we think that growing our business outside of Indonesia is actually a key priority for us this year. And there is also the fact that we understand that the products and services that we've built in Indonesia, and this unique approach of really thinking about the problems holistically rather than just vertical-by-vertical, is really something that applies to many other markets outside of Indonesia. And, to the extent that we know that Indonesia is the most important market in Southeast Asia, we also recognize that it's not the only market. And we know that the problems that we've managed to solve in Indonesia, with some adaptation, can actually be applied in many other places. And what we've done over the past few months, is really build the right organization and the right product in order to make those necessary adaptations for other countries. And we're starting to see some really encouraging results from that. 

ALAN  28:42  
That's great to hear, Kevin. Now, what "mega-problem" would you like to see Gojek solve over, say, the next five years? 

KEVIN ALUWI  28:49  
The way that Andre and I divide up our responsibilities is that I'm responsible for the on-demand side of the business. And Andre is responsible for the payments and financial services side of the business. So everything that is about moving things in the physical space I'm responsible for. And so I'm going to focus my answer primarily on that, and maybe less so on the second one, but I do know what Andre is chasing after there. And I'll touch on that at the end. From my perspective, most of Southeast Asia from an urban development standpoint, has a lot of friction. Cities have grown very organically and far more quickly than most governments have anticipated. And as a result, the transportation infrastructure is always a little bit behind what the needs are. And when I say transportation, it could mean transporting people, but it also means moving things around. And so what we're really focused on is really reimagining how one sees mobility in the cities. We think that there's so much potential mobility capacity in all of these cities, because there's so many vehicles that are moving around, but meeting this capacity with the demand for that capacity is always historically been a challenge. And I know I'm talking about this in a very high level, philosophical way. But it does translate down to, let's say GoFood. The problem that we solved specifically with GoFood because we had this delivery network was that in Jakarta, like in many other Southeast Asian cities, rent for desirable commercial real estate is super-high. And so the only ones who can afford commercial real estate are companies and rich individuals who are setting up their F&B businesses. And the long tail, which is the majority of F&B businesses, actually have to be in places that are a lot less desirable. And when it's less desirable, they don't get a lot of foot traffic. And so the innovation that we built with GoFood was to plug these types of mom-and-pop merchants, which represent 90% of our merchant base in GoFood, into a distribution network of drivers who can then deliver food to customers. Because we managed to tap this merchant base and create that connection, we have a food delivery business in Indonesia, that is really, really unique. And one can imagine that there are other areas similar to this, where because of the dynamics of the transportation infrastructure, there are businesses and individuals who have a lot of friction in doing the best that they can. And so if we actually can figure out a way to unlock all of this mobility or delivery capacity in these cities, the amount of things that we could possibly do is so massive. And one of the things that I'm really focusing a lot of my time with our team today is really crystallizing what the next couple of years will look like, because we're really only getting started in transportation and food delivery and logistics. There is a bigger play here that we will share very, very soon and very, very publicly around how we think about unlocking these capabilities. We've touched upon it very organically in a lot of the businesses that we're doing, but there is a unifying theme here. 

ALAN  31:45  
Understood. Continuing on the topic of "mega-problems", I'm aware that you spent several years in Southern California as a student. 

KEVIN ALUWI  31:52  
Yes. 

ALAN  31:53  
...which leads me to the question which city has more mega problematic traffic, Los Angeles or Jakarta? 

KEVIN ALUWI  32:00  
It's got to be Jakarta Alan, by far...by far. When I was working in LA, there was rush hour traffic in the morning, and there was rush hour traffic in the evening or afternoon. But beyond that, traffic was very bearable. But in Indonesia, in Jakarta especially, it's brutal. It's soul crushing. And some of the best feedback that we've gotten when we first launched was actually from customers who said like, "Oh, thank you for launching the service. Because now instead of spending three hours on the road, I get to spend only one hour, and now I get to spend those additional two hours with my children or with my family". I mean, it's really soul crushing. And so whatever we can do to help alleviate that problem in some small way is super rewarding. 

ALAN  32:42  
Definitely one of the many silver linings of the whole work-from-home regime, I guess. 

KEVIN ALUWI  32:47  
Oh, yes, absolutely. 

ALAN  32:49  
I really hope that our audience has come away with the same level of appreciation as I have of the Gojek story and its rich history, and specifically the sheer range of innovations and impact that it has delivered to Indonesian society over the past several years. Kevin, to say you're one of the busiest tech executives in the region would clearly be an understatement. And I thus want to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to join us today. 

KEVIN ALUWI  33:14  
Thank you, Alan. It's been a pleasure. Like I said to you before, I'm a big fan of the podcast. Happy to be here. Thanks a lot. Chat with you soon.

ALAN  33:21  
You're very welcome. We also hope that you, the listener, have enjoyed today's episode. And as always, we appreciate any feedback that you're willing to share about the Indo Tekno podcast. Terima kasih telah mendengarkan.  Sampai jumpa lagi!