EPISODE 17

TRANSCRIPT

Episode Seventeen

The "Three Zeroes":

Tanah Sullivan of Gojek

4 May 2021

 

ALAN  0:12  
Welcome back to Season Two, Episode 17 of the Indo Tekno podcast. I'm Alan Hellawell, Founder of Gizmo Advisors and Venture Partner at Alpha JWC Ventures. Selamat datang kembali. Now we're living in unprecedented times, and companies are facing important issues as they navigate challenging economic, political, social and other issues. The COVID 19 pandemic, deteriorating employee welfare and climate change are a few of the many problems that have put the spotlight on all corners of society at large, including the tech sector. Investors themselves are demanding proof of an increased focus on environmental, social and governance, commonly coined "ESG" by leading players, not only in traditional industry, but also increasingly in the internet space. Gojek just yesterday in fact unveiled a more than 60-page sustainability report in which it detailed its commitment to the "Three Zeros", which are pledges to achieve Zero Emissions, Zero Waste and Zero Barriers by 2030. We are really pleased to have join us today the author of that report, Tanah Sullivan, Group Head of Sustainability at Gojek. A pleasure to have you join us today, Tanah.

TANAH SULLIVAN  1:27  
Thank you, Alan. It's an absolute pleasure to be here.

ALAN  1:30  
Fantastic. Now, Tanah, first congratulations on synthesising and launching such an ambitious set of imperatives. Before we delve into the report, I'd love to discuss the path that you have followed prior to taking the sustainability helm at Gojek. How did you come to land upon such an area of focus?

TANAH SULLIVAN  1:47  
Well, Alan, I wish my career trajectory was as straight and simple for a quick and concise response. But sustainability really has been the driving force behind a lot of my career decisions, even as nonlinear as it has been. And essentially, I think, from every job and opportunity that I've ever undertaken, it's always been at the heart and soul of what I've wanted to do in the organisations that I've joined. I previously joined Gojek from the World Economic Forum. Prior to that I was largely in the public sector. So I worked with the Canadian Department of Foreign Affairs, where I covered nuclear security and non proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, which is a big one. And also then the Australian Government where I worked on the G-20 Summit and Australia's engagement in the G-20 Leaders Summit that was held every year. So it's been covering a lot of different topics. But here we are today. I think I've been very privileged and very blessed to be able to have those opportunities, working from international development to, like I mentioned before, issues of international security. So I think that wide breadth of experience and exposure has really best positioned me for this opportunity today that I have with Gojek.

ALAN  3:01  
Clearly a lot of very interesting roles there, not the least of which is preventing World War Three at NATO. And I'd love to get to that. But I want to focus on ESG today. Now, Tanah, I indeed see you spent six years at the World Economic Forum. Could you tell us about what you felt was the most meaningful work you did while at the forum?

TANAH SULLIVAN  3:21  
Well, Alan, I think, for anyone who's familiar with organisations like the World Economic Forum, and of course, the Forum in particular, it is an incredibly powerful organisation. It convened some of the most powerful, influential leaders from across the public and private sectors. And so I think I was very privileged as well in this particular opportunity to have the kind of exposure to those world leaders. Of course, the Forum as well known for its annual summit in Davos. And being part of that and being in the rooms and privy to the kinds of conversations that industry leaders or heads of state and ministers or civil society leaders were having around some of the world's most pressing issues, I really didn't take that for granted and really appreciated every minute of it. So I think the time I spent at the Forum really helped shape and prepare me for this role at Gojek if you can believe it. It was really eye-opening to hear directly from leaders themselves, especially when by the way cameras weren't rolling. And media or journalists weren't in the room, you actually got to hear and see some incredible things happening behind closed doors. One particular experience that strikes me, I call it one of my Davos moments, was being in the room with quite a lot of CEO's in particular from the energy industry. And overhearing two of them talk about the fact that there was really an issue around gender equality in the oil and gas industry, which is quite commonly known. And one of them saying, "I have three daughters, and it's really disheartening to look around this room that we're mostly men (caucasian men at that) and to think that one my daughters might not be able to make it into this room one day." So I really want to change that. And so that, for me really was one of the many profound moments I had while working at the Forum. And I think it cemented my desire to work with leaders who are purpose-driven and mission-aligned and so forth. And at Gojek that is definitely the case. And so I was really, really excited to be able to move from the Forum to Gojek to work on more regional and local challenges.

ALAN  5:25  
Must have been nothing short of surreal to have such a rare chance to work amongst such leadership and to listen to such candour. Now Tanah, getting back to your report, could you begin by explaining what ESG is, in your mind?

TANAH SULLIVAN  5:38  
ESG is used interchangeably with sustainability. But for the intended purposes of this question, I think I'll keep referring to it as ESG. But for me, it's really about how a company is disclosing its performance, and its impact on real environmental and social issues, which more and more are becoming part, if not central to, the conversation around the private sectors role in the world. And so, at Gojek, this report was fundamental in how we are being transparent around our environmental and social impact, and not in a "company brochure" way. But really, how is it aligning with our performance as a company, and how we are measuring that performance as a company. So to me, ESG is about how companies first and foremost, transform the way that they're doing business, not because they're saying they are, but they're actually holding themselves to what's considered world class ESG standards. And then two, how they're communicating and disclosing their performance as it relates to those relevant and material ESG issues to their company. Those two things, I think, are the most important factors for what ESG is, to me, in my mind. 

ALAN  6:52  
Very helpful, Tanah. I have to say, when I think of ESG, I imagine cigarette companies or paper or petroleum producers, being forced by shareholders and society-at-large to articulate how they intend to become more responsible in areas such as personal health or environmental protection. Why would a tech company need to articulate an ESG policy?

TANAH SULLIVAN  7:15  
So there's been a shift in terms of expectations on the private sector. And the reason why a tech company like Gojek needs to articulate its ESG policy is precisely because of those increasing expectations and, dare I say, pressures from broader society around how we are responding to issues like social justice or inequality or climate change. You've seen the growing movement out there permeating in different ways: climate school strikes with young people, what was happening in the US, and continues to happen in the US, with Black Lives Matter, France with the "gilets jaunes", or the yellow vests. These are deeply rooted grievances that I think are the outcome of generations of concern of systemic inequality, in justices including to and for the environment. We are in a global crisis as it relates to climate change. We are in a global crisis as it relates to systemic inequality. I personally have a deep conviction that organisations now all need to do something, not just being a force for good but rather actually trying to problem-solve or be part of the solution to some of these crises, the greatest ones we've ever faced as a society. So for me, why Gojek needs to articulate an ESG policy, why it has and why it is, articulating its ESG policy; is exactly in response to that. Responding to issues like climate change or social inequality and showing all of its stakeholders, not just its shareholders, that these are important issues, material issues to our company, and that we cannot continue to grow and succeed without having these environmental social considerations at the heart of everything that we do. In the same way companies prioritise financial risk, we also are going to prioritise environmental and social risks

ALAN  9:04  
Understood. Now the centrepiece of the report is what you would call the "Three Zeros". Can you talk us through each of these three zeros that the report addresses? For instance, what exactly will we be carrying out and committing to achieving with "Zero Emissions"?

TANAH SULLIVAN  9:22  
Great question, Alan. And I hope the Three Zeros are going to be really, really easy for people to remember, because that was the intention behind their design. But zero emissions, just to be clear, is about our company and our platform's transition to a carbon-neutral platform; to a low-carbon economy. And it's going to comprise different areas or dimensions of how we're going to approach that. And first, of course, is it's about how we integrate more sustainable practices as a company, and that includes things like adoption of electric vehicles; so moving or shifting our fleet to a 100% electric vehicle fleet. Now, knowing that our driver partners are themselves the owners of their vehicles, and we are really just the platform that facilitates all that mobility; I think for us, it's about ensuring that there's the right infrastructure and support systems and incentives, of course, so that our driver partners can and are incentivised to make those transitions towards electric mobility. Second is around our company's operations itself, probably a little less interesting, considering almost 95% of our carbon footprint is from the use of transport across our platform. But it's things like, for example, making sure that our offices are powered by renewable energy sources where possible. We don't own any of the properties where we have our offices. But that doesn't mean we can't work with the right partners and stakeholders to make sure that our offices, for example, can move towards renewable energy-sourced power. And then third is around offsetting. So for all the residual emissions that we cannot avoid or reduce; the plan is to offset. So that's a summary of our approach to achieving what we're considering carbon neutrality.

ALAN  11:08  
Very helpful. Now Tanah, just in the first example of encouraging our driver partners to embrace the EV (electric vehicle) wave, I'm assuming we don't maintain a goal of converting all of our fleet to EV by 2030. Is that right?

TANAH SULLIVAN  11:23  
That's absolutely the target, Alan! That's exactly what we want to get to!

ALAN  11:28  
Well, I would say my compatriots in the United States will be far behind Gojek drivers in Indonesia, if that's the case. But, you really do feel like there's a robust enough set of incentives, and I would think government support, to convert the entirety of our fleet to EV?

TANAH SULLIVAN  11:45  
Look, Alan, you make a really good point. I think there are very many external variables outside of our control, such as government regulations, and the way that the government sees the future of electric mobility in a country as complex and large as Indonesia. But in short answer, yes, we are 100% behind this commitment to transitioning all vehicles on Gojek's platform across all the markets where it operates, to electric vehicles. My colleague, Raditya Wibowo, who's the Chief Transport Officer at Gojek, actually shared a quote, which is in the sustainability report, saying we'd be in "a much bigger crisis as humanity if we weren't all able to collectively move towards a cleaner transportation system". And so that conviction that is consistent across the entire leadership of the company, is exactly the motivation that all of us need to be able to problem-solve the things like cost effectiveness for our driver partners, or the challenges around battery swapping our charging infrastructure and how you roll that out, not just across Indonesia, but also the other markets where Gojek operates: Thailand, Vietnam, Singapore, and so forth. We are 100% behind this commitment. We are always going to be transparent about our progress, which means that every year we plan to report on the targets that we're setting for our electric vehicle adoption. And we will work very closely hand-in-hand, not just with the government and the different private sector partners we're working with on this, but also our driver partners, because ultimately, they are going to be the ones who help us achieve that target.

ALAN  13:25  
Well, that is just one bold and noble goal. Well, let's go on to the second "Zero". What do we mean in referring to "Zero Waste" by 2030?

TANAH SULLIVAN  13:36  
Zero Waste means zero waste pollution to the environment. Now, I wish I could articulate this in the detail that we have for zero emissions. But frankly, we just haven't started the full scoping of this yet. So what this means is that this year, we are embarking on our first waste inventory, similar to what we did with our carbon inventory as well. And that will be an accounting of the entire waste from Gojek's ecosystem, not just us as a company, but across all of the hundreds of 1,000s of merchant partners we have on our platform as well. As you can imagine, that is an incredibly complicated undertaking. But we are convinced that we need that data to be able to then identify how we can reduce and avoid waste in the first place. And that relates to both from a packaging perspective, and also a food perspective. And then second, how we then work with upstream partners and downstream partners. Because Gojek as a platform is really the middleman or facilitator in all of this. And so working with those upstream and downstream partners to make sure that we are reducing, or eliminating altogether, the introduction of new or virgin single-use plastic into the ecosystem in the first place. And then on the downstream side is we're working with partners who are experts and have working solutions, even if they're still very much in their infancy, to process and repurpose the waste that is generated. So that's the game plan. I think anyone who is familiar with this subject matter knows this is an incredibly complex challenge, because we are still trying to figure out exactly what materials can replace single use plastic. Because, like it or not, plastic is an incredible material in itself. It is durable, it is very cheap. And from a food storage perspective, or food transport perspective, it is very hygienic as well. And so, especially in light of the pandemic, I think these were really, really important concerns for both merchants and consumers as well. And so I think for us, it's again, working with many stakeholders from upstream and downstream and partners who have some of these solutions, but require a platform to be able to scale them. That's our role. That's our role as Gojek in trying to problem solve for zero waste.

ALAN  15:56  
Again, very broad ambition, and it'll be interesting to see the progress that you guys make in achieving that vision. And finally, what does "Zero Barriers" mean?

TANAH SULLIVAN  16:07  
So this is what I would consider the most complex of all of our pledges. And the reason is, it is not as straightforward or black-and-white as it is with emissions or waste. There, you have clear international frameworks and science-based targets that are being set for emissions reduction, for example. Now, when it comes to socio-economic progress, which is what zero barriers is about, we're talking about real humans here. And I think that is, of course, what's driving this commitment is to figure out how as a platform, we can do better by the stakeholders that depend on our platform for their livelihoods. I think knowing what we do so far, and knowing the conversations that are being had around platform companies, and their engagement of entrepreneurs, micro-entrepreneurs, drivers, merchants, what have you; this is not just a challenge, unique to Gojek. It is for all platform companies globally. I think we want to take all of these things into consideration. And then from there, we will figure out exactly what is the right model and the right ecosystem for our driver, or our merchant partners to be able to not just survive, but thrive; to be resilient to future shocks or disruptions like COVID, to not have to live hand-to-mouth. I think in a country, especially like Indonesia, we have that obligation and responsibility to our partners. And we really, really take that seriously. So right now we are figuring out exactly what data points we need. And then what we can use as indicators of socio-economic mobility and progress, because of our platform. What's really important here is that again, like I mentioned before, these are humans we are talking about. And so for us when we are out there and (by the way, I do this almost daily) interact with driver and merchant partners, no matter where I am in Indonesia, I think it's asking them, what is it that they need? What is it that a platform like Gojek can provide, so that they're not just one medical emergency away from falling below the poverty line, or they're not just one leaking roof away from falling below the poverty line. I think this is really what we want to focus on in the coming years. And so zero barriers is really for us a testament to that. Now, I talked a lot about the ecosystem. But I also want to focus a little bit on what we're doing internally. Zero barriers also relates to our efforts on diversity and equity and inclusion within our company. We want of course, to build an inclusive platform. But we know at the same time, we also need to be looking inwards, and assessing how we can improve our diversity metrics, how we can make our company an equal opportunity company where everyone, no matter who they are, belongs, feels safe and supported and engaged and valued, and that we are as inclusive as possible as well. You Alan, you mentioned before you're American. So diversity inclusion can mean very many different things compared to the US as it does here in Indonesia, or across the broader Southeast Asian region. And so for us, it's really also looking at what does diversity and equity and inclusion look like in an Indonesian context, or a Thai context, or a Vietnamese context. And so we're really putting all of those things together to try and come up with a plan that will get us to zero barriers as it relates to our company.

ALAN  19:40  
Understood. Now in perusing the report, I was particularly fascinated by the "GoGreener Carbon Offset in-app feature. Can you tell us more about that? 

TANAH SULLIVAN  19:49  
Of course. So first, as a caveat, though, I want to say the GoGreener carbon offset feature is great, and it's been the culmination of several years of work by some amazing colleagues who are now part of the sustainability team. That said, it's just one of several that we aim to roll out. And I think what's important here is that these are not siloed products or features that we are launching on our platform. We are not delegating responsibility to users or drivers or merchants to engage or make more environmentally responsible choices. We're also "walking the talk" as a company. So these things are all in conjunction with, and in parallel to, the efforts we're taking as a company towards more environmentally responsible practices. And around GoGreener carbon offset itself, it was the first product in the world for B2C carbon offsetting for the ride hailing industry. It was actually a really exciting collaboration between Gojek and jack in, which is one of the alumni of Gojek's startup accelerator arm. For those who may not be familiar with it, or who are outside of Southeast Asia, GoGreener carbon offset is a "shuffle card" on the Gojek app. And essentially, it allows users to calculate their carbon footprint, and then choose to plant the corresponding number of trees needed to offset their carbon footprint. And they can do this on a daily basis. We refer to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change and the Ministry of Environment here in Indonesia as recommendations for how we calculate the carbon footprint. And we make the conversion then to the number of trees needed. So far, I think we've exceeded the target in the first three months of launching this feature. Gojek committed to one-for-one. So for every one tree planted by a user, Gojek also planted one. It's things like this that we definitely want to roll out even more. So it's a much more comprehensive suite of features and products. And they are going to make it as seamless as possible for our users to be able to make more sustainable choices on our platform.

ALAN  21:53  
Absolutely fascinating. Now, what single goal in the report are you personally most impassioned about Tanah?

TANAH SULLIVAN  22:00  
Alan that's really hard to reference one! I'm incredibly excited about zero emissions. "Excited" probably is the wrong word. I have real climate anxiety. It is the one thing probably that keeps me up at night, especially because I have two kids. And I think anyone, whether you have children or not really, who has looked into this in-depth; we've been aware of the impact of climate change and the impending doom that climate scientists have been talking about if we don't change the way that we're doing things, for decades. And for us to be here now, and seeing the impact of climate change, especially in a country like Indonesia, where we are going to be disproportionately affected by climate change; it's really, really harrowing. And as I said, it keeps me up at night. I'm not sure what world my kids will grow up in, or what the world will look like when they're adults. And for me, it's really why zero emissions gets me excited about getting up every morning and doing the work that we're doing. Because, in whatever small part Gojek can play, we want to play it. And so we want to contribute to it. And we want to be part of that solution. The solution to, for example, Indonesia overall as a country reducing its own carbon emissions; but also hopefully being a model for other companies to also do the same in whatever way it makes sense for them. This is again, a crisis that we're dealing with. And I think we should not take it lightly. And it's why also it's part of our environmental and social management system internally. We consider environmental and social risks really important. And it's part of our broader enterprise risk management system, the same way we consider financial risk, and a huge one as well. The other one I want to mention: I mean, look, socio-economic progress is really important to me. And I'm very, very passionate about it. Like I said, I interact with and engage with driver and merchant partners almost daily. And if it weren't for them, I don't think I would be as passionate about the job that I'm doing. And so for me, it's making sure that we are really doing good, as best as possible for all the partners who rely on our platform, and that we're doing them justice. So I think, although that blueprint is still a work-in-progress, it's something that I'm definitely, definitely passionate about, and really, really excited now that the report is out to "roll up my sleeves" and really get started working on with the other teams in house.

ALAN  24:26  
Now Tanah, I've read that Gojek's ESG report is the very first to be compiled by a Southeast Asian internet company that is in alignment with international standards. Can an argument be made that maybe it's still too early to begin this conversation? 

TANAH SULLIVAN  24:40  
Look, Alan, I think we should have started yesterday, to be totally honest with you. I mean, all of us. So, no I don't think that it's still too early to have this conversation. There are a lot of standards out there. ESG reporting is still voluntary. It's not really regulated or standardised anywhere in the world. People say it is complicated because it's like an alphabet soup of acronyms. But we do have to start somewhere and being in alignment with international standards, like the ones that we've used in the report from the global reporting initiative, or GRI, and the sustainability Accounting Standards Board, or SASB; that was critical to us even doing the report in the first place. So for me, I'm going to be really excited to see it this year. And I believe it's in June, when the Value Reporting Foundation, which is a merger between SASB and the International Integrated Reporting Council, what they're going to come up with. It's supposed to be announced in June Because for companies like ourselves, we're really going to use that to then ensure that we're integrating that into future reporting. So not too early, definitely need to start, and everyone has to start somewhere.

ALAN  25:44  
Gotcha. So Tanah, just continuing this vein of discussion: we've seen the perennial argument by critics of ESG, that it can saddle a company with significant costs, not just visible, but also hidden. How do you think about this assessment?

TANAH SULLIVAN  26:00  
I'd be really interested to hear from you, Alan, what you've surfaced as "hidden costs". Off the top of my head, I think we don't consider these significant costs. For us, these are investments in our future as a platform. And whatever painful and difficult decisions we need to make now so that we can pivot towards becoming, for example, a carbon-neutral platform, we absolutely have to do. And like with most sustainability-related efforts, we're not going to see the fruits of our labour for sometimes multiple years. So I think having that long term view of it and knowing that we're buckling down now and investing now, so that we're going to be able to get to a point where we can do this is going to be business as usual for us: that's really, really important.

ALAN  26:44  
Understood. Just as an American, between the last two administrations, we've seen that environmental policy has gone from being considered an evil overhead or tax, to something that to your earlier point about you and your family and your two sons, is an investment in the future. And I think the single, double and triple bottom line concept comes into play, when we think about maybe the longer term or less palpable benefits of an ESG policy that don't show up on that P&L, or that show up as a significant cost. So it's great to see the dialogue becoming much more multi-dimensional and longer term. I think with that we can actually have these conversations.

TANAH SULLIVAN  27:28  
Maybe Alan, if I can just respond to that too. Because I think our intention is to get to a point where we have integrated reporting. So the same way that we would have a financial statement as a company, we plan to also have an ESG statement. And it will be integrated with our financial statements. And the reason why I'm such a huge advocate for that is precisely because of what you just mentioned. It shows that we're measuring our performance, not just from a financial perspective, but also from an ESG perspective. And this is what it looks like.

ALAN  28:00  
Understood. But let's go back to my earlier question about ESG possibly saddling a company with costs. Let's just take for example, that I assume there could be scope for very costly and wrenching change for both Gojek and frankly its driver partners, should our ESG principles force us, for instance, to drive down sharply current motorcycle and automotive emissions. How should we think about that, if that is the hypothesis?

TANAH SULLIVAN  28:29  
We're trying to pivot a huge ship. Like I mentioned before, it's going to take time, but we've set the direction. We know where we want to go. We'll never enforce the wrenching change that you might be referring to, without considering the implications for our entire ecosystem. It's why our consultation process is so important. As part of our materiality assessment, even for this report, we didn't just take what Gojek leadership told us was important to report on or to prioritise. But we actually conducted many, many hours of interviews with driver partners, with merchant partners, with users; to make sure that we could get as comprehensive a picture as possible about what ESG issues we should be prioritising as a company. Even knowing the point around costs, that some of these things are gonna be very costly on let's say on future financial reporting, it might look like we spent a lot on this. It's because we believe that these are areas that are going to drive our company's future growth. And that is not just us saying it. We're actually going to be doing it. And around driver partners, we would never enforce drivers, for example, to purchase an electric vehicle if the cost structure did not fit in with what they could afford today. And so this is why, and where, our pilots and the feasibility studies that we've conducted, are so incredibly important. Because that obviously informs when and how we can start moving towards EV adoption, and how and when we can start incentivising and creating those structures that I mentioned before, for our driver partners to be able to afford these electric vehicles in the first place. Total cost of ownership for sure is one of the biggest hurdles that we have to our zero emissions target of electrifying the entire Gojek fleet. But we are very, very impassioned about it. And we are very, very committed to figuring out and problem-solving this. And I think, definitely not to be completely cliched, but for us, there's always a way to resolve this. And we're definitely working with the right partners, I think, to get there.

ALAN  30:36  
Great. I'll definitely buy that. Now, let me ask you a point blank question Tanah: where do you place Indonesia at large in its embrace of ESG?

TANAH SULLIVAN  30:45  
I think like most emerging markets, Alan, it's getting there. The question is, are developed markets really the "North Star" for us. I think there's pros and cons. Sustainability overall requires a lot of multi-stakeholder collaboration, a lot of humility to say "we're in this situation because of XYZ decisions or actions that happened before us". My own personal approach with anything in life is to try and triangulate from as diverse and as representative perspectives as possible, and find the best approach that fits with my reality at that point in life. And so for Indonesia, I think it has been and will continue to be generally the same thing. What can Indonesia learn from other markets in terms of best practices; but of course, with the additional layer of applying it within a local context. In terms of reporting, there's already some requirements, for example, for public companies to report on, or disclose their performance around certain environmental and social regulations. So it's already there. I think a lot of companies in Indonesia are still, like us, figuring out how to implement some of these changes, or how to take some of these regulations and really apply it to our business from a policy and an operations standpoint. And so for us, again, there are so many best practices out there, both across the region, and also globally. And, of course, our industry being relatively new; it's definitely for us a matter of observing and learning from what's happening out there and then applying it within our context and then making sure that we are making changes that are in line as best as possible with government targets as well, and support obviously the government's own ESG-related efforts and targets.

ALAN  32:25  
Now, Tanah, what in your mind are the starkest perils of not having ESG guidelines?

TANAH SULLIVAN  32:31  
Well, that's a big one. And I'm going to try to answer that as concisely as possible. But these ESG guidelines hold companies who are only interested in greenwashing to accountable and transparent benchmarks. Without ESG standards, for example, there's no way to measure and benchmark ESG performance. It's an absolute necessity. It's the same reason why financial accounting standards were set up in the 70's, so that investors and financial markets could compare apples-to-apples, and they could do it in a transparent and an accountable way. For ESG guidelines, like the Task Force on Climate Related Financial Disclosures (TCFD) or others; these are also incredibly important to help companies like Gojek identify how we're going to implement the changes we need as it relates to climate-related disclosures and so much more. And then you have the SASB's, the standard setting boards, who really have been incredibly impactful in setting up practical guides, doing it by industry, and ensuring investors and markets can assess the ESG performance of companies in a comprehensive and a meaningful way. So for me, not having these types of standards or guidelines, it's a free-for-all. Then it's completely up to every organisation what picture they want to paint. And if you're more jaded, you'll know, companies will only want to show their rosy side. And that's not the full picture. And so for us, these ESG guidelines and standards make sure that we are being transparent and disclosing the right metrics and the right indicators; and even when it doesn't show us in the most positive light. Because that's the only way that we're going to be able to improve. We do hope that with the report that we launched, and the commitments we're making, that all companies across all industries who haven't already will also start to look at how they can embark on the same journey, actually demonstrating how they're integrating sustainability into their business.

ALAN  34:20  
It is really clear Tanah that this set of initiatives that Gojek has articulated is not merely empty rhetoric. And it has been particularly enlightening today to gain a deeper appreciation of the actual motivations behind these initiatives. Also very cool to be able to translate ESG priorities into the internet and shared economy space. In fact, I bet a lot of your peers will be following these pioneering efforts. So thanks a lot for joining us today, Tanah, and best of luck on your trip through the year 2030.

TANAH SULLIVAN  34:51  
Thanks so much, Alan. It was an absolute pleasure to talk to you today. And I hope also it was an interesting listen for all your listeners.

ALAN  34:58  
Fantastic. We indeed hope our listeners have enjoyed today's episode. And as always, please consider sharing any feedback that you have about the Indo Tekno podcast with us. Terima kasih telah mendengarkan.  Sampai jumpa lagi!

Transcribed by https://otter.ai